Eye of the Beholder (beholder_man.7z)

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Mr Creosote:
Good points. I think, in the end, it comes down to what players expect and what you call 'RPG elements'. I used it in the review meaning things like an evolving storyline, real characters to interact with and so on. Of course, if you define 'RPG' as a pure dungeon crawl, Eye of the Beholder is full of RPG elements.

Only that pen and paper is trying to imitate videogames. Thing like trying to be like the Final Fantasy games, with a weird mix of fantasy, advanced science-fiction and other things that look weird and absurd to adding mechanics to creating your own weapon mixing materials and magic (like for example what you can do on Vagrant Story on the PSX, which in that game ends being tedious).

They take mechanics and ideas, getting closer to what people think is a RPG due to videogames, which are fairly more popular. There is even a World of Warcraft RPG, but that is more due to the custom of making your biggest franchises work on the street.

They aren't getting bland, just getting geared to other kind of people. D&D came from wargames, others came from books like Call of Cthulhu and now some start coming from videogames. Each generation has their own kind, I suppose.

Just in this case it jumped from pen and paper to computer and then back.

Mr Creosote:
Apparantely, I misunderstood your initial point. I thought you were blaming the influence of computer games for P&P getting bland. Could you explain what you were getting at?

The version of D&D I was talking is the new 4th edition. They did a weird mix-max with the forgotten realms, supposedly the world collided with an alternate reality, and along the story world change they did game changes.

While the SSI games where 2nd edition. Some of the newer are 3rd edition, but I just know the barebones of what each edition is supposed to be like, I never got into D&D.

So there is a distance in rules between the SSI games and the new edition, with several games in the middle that sold well. It's normal they thought of the futures games when designing.

Also, I don't think pen and paper is getting less deep. Ironically the games that are more game influenced I saw are also more rules heavy, and add too many complexities to my taste. They are the kind of game that makes me think this all was better in a videogame, because I'm not a computer and can't recall even half of this.

Mr Creosote:

Of course, there is a reciprocal effect between P&P and the computer world. It makes sense, because the target audiences have got a significant overlap and perceptions and expectations change.

I think you're making it a little easy on yourself if you blame computer games on P&P getting less depth. Sure, on the one hand, there is the whole sub-genre of Hack clones which certainly aren't very deep. On the other hand, in the late 80s and early 90s, the Forgotten Realms games by SSI were, I think, perfect examples of very complex RPGs.


You comment it lacks some RPG elements, but it's because the game is more close to pen & paper RPGs, or at least to AD&D dungeon crawls (I've always preffered other games, so much combat is just throwing handfuls of dices).

D&D adapted to videogames. These videogames get popular (like this one). They more or less keep faithful to the original.

To where does this go? To the new D&D being designed with videogames in mind. Ok, I've barely looked at the new manuals, but that's I've heard, and what I've seen with other RPGs.

I'm ranting, I know. But this classical computer RPG made me remind how there are no more RPG videogames and some pen and paper RPGs are trying to get close to videogames.