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Another lawsuit...

Posted at 11:29 on September 12th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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Intel has been sued in the USA (where else?) because their P4 CPUs are too slow. The suing customers claim Intel used unfair methods in their advertisement, using the MHz/GHz speed as a quality mark whereas P3 and AMD processors are in some cases faster with less MHz.

In the case of success, each suing customer can be 'awarded' up to $75000 (the case takes place in California). With approximately 50 million P4s being sold up until now, it would add up to quite a nice sum for Intel to pay on the whole ;)
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Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
Posted at 11:55 on September 12th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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I just heard today that the next generation of Intel processors would have special support for Microsoft's Palladium... Guess they'll be going out of business soon then :P
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Posted at 12:30 on September 12th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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It's stuff like this that makes me wish I lived in the States. I'd be a pretty good candidate for this one, too, since I was quite convinced a P4 would always be faster than a P3 running at the same clock speed. Come to think of it, I still am. Either these people have their facts wrong, or Intel has a very weird notion of what "techonological development" means.
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C'est pas la chute qu'importe -- c'est l'atterrissage
Posted at 01:12 on September 13th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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Dizzy: The speed of the processor is one thing, but the size of the cache of the processor (memory in the processor) is what turns a Snail into a Cheetah.

This is what AMD does to beat Intel everytime, they use the same processor basically, and then they put in a bigger cache so that more data is actually in the CPU to be worked on.

This works on the same principle of Memory (RAM) vs. Hard Drives, where Memory is approximately 100 times faster at retreiving data then from a Hard Drive.

What the people are sueing for is the fact that Intel tells people that it is the processor clock speed that people should look at when buying a chip.
AMD on the other hand have never claimed it is clock speed, and for marketing reasons they don't tell people what the clock speed is because it doesn't give a fair representation of it's abilities.

We can look at the P4 1.7GHz, this was beaten hands down by a AMD Thunderbird 1.4GHz, which was only beaten by the P4 2.1GHz.

But yet the average person saw the AMD '1.4GHz' and then saw the Intel '1.7Ghz', and they bought the 1.7 because they were told be Intel they were "faster processors" which is not true at all except for clock speed at which they run at.

*takes a deep breath*

Personally, I don't think Intel will be beaten, when they said "faster" they were of course refering to clock speed, and it was the average user that got the wrong impression because it was a misleading word ( "faster" ) in this case.

Edited by Delos at 03:13 on September, 13th 2002
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Posted at 04:30 on September 13th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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Quote:
This is what AMD does to beat Intel everytime, they use the same processor basically, and then they put in a bigger cache so that more data is actually in the CPU to be worked on.
Wrong. You obviously don't know much about the Von-Neumann architecture of CPUs (and I don't blame you for it - it's an incredibly boring subject), but I can tell you cache is just one of many factors. The whole pipelining technique, the splitting of the ALU, the addressing of MMU - it's all done differently in AMD processors than in Intel's.

It's completely obvious Intel will win this case in my opinion, because there is simply no objective way to determine the speed of a CPU. If it was like Delos said, it would be easy: you could calculate the 'speed index' with a simple combination of cycle speed and cache. That is not the case though (as hinted at - I don't really want to go into detail about that).
The benchmarked speed always depends on the other components in the computer, and since some parts are working together better with this CPU and others with the other one, there can't be an objective system for testing. Next quirk: what software to use? Some programs are optimized for the way an Intel CPU works, some like the AMD style better.

So what the suing people propose (an objective speed indicator) is not possible. And that demasks their obvious attempt to earn some easy money...
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Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
Posted at 04:49 on September 13th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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I'm aware that there are many factors that influence the actual processor speed, and it can even be true that AMD processors running at slower speeds consistently beat their Intel counterparts. What I said was, if you have a P3 and P4 running at the same clock speed in identical systems, the P4 should always outperform the P3, precisely because of those improvements in the architecture. If not, then Intel is definetly doing something wrong and deserves to be sued.

However, I agree with you. This lawsuit is going nowhere. It might, however, generate some bad press for Intel, and I bet AMD won't mind that a bit. ;)
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C'est pas la chute qu'importe -- c'est l'atterrissage
Posted at 04:55 on September 13th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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Quote:
P4 should always outperform the P3
Well... no. It sounds right enough, but there might always be programs which have been written so closely to the P3's architecture that they run extremely well on them, but not nearly as fast on any other CPU. Such basic programming has been 'out-of-style' for decades now, yes ;) But I'm talking about theory.
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Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
Posted at 08:03 on September 13th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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Well the kernel of an OS is very close to the CPU, making it a good candidate for slowing down on a faster processor.
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Posted at 18:26 on September 13th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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Mr Creosote: I never said that was the only way to speed up the CPU, but consistantly since the beginning this has been the main way AMD has beaten Intel. It was this method that put them into the spot light and made them so much money in the very beginning.
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Posted at 03:36 on September 14th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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consistantly since the beginning this has been the main way AMD has beaten Intel. It was this method that put them into the spot light and made them so much money in the very beginning.
Again, wrong. What put them (and Cyrix back then) into the spotlight was ironically enough the clock speed of their CPUs! Intel's 80386 only went up to 33MHz, AMD and Cyrix managed to push theirs to 40 MHz. That is what made them 'famous' in the first place - not cache size.
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Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
Posted at 18:48 on September 14th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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It wasn't until late the late 90's (1999?) that AMD even sold computer chips here in New Zealand. The single thing that allowed them some market share was the cache size allowing for more performance for something that seemed by by Intel standards to be slower.

I had another look in my text book, and it states that even though AMD as been around for over 30 years now (Circa. 1969), it was this (below) that made the big difference in gaining market share over Intel.

Quote:
AMD AM5x86 (1995)

This is the chip that put AMD onto the map as official Intel competition. While I am mentioning it here on the 486 page of the history lesson, it was actually AMD's competitive response to Intel's Pentium-class processor. Users of the Intel 486 processor, in order to get Pentium-class performance, had to make use of an expensive OverDrive processor or ditch their motherboard in favor of a true Pentium board. AMD saw an opening here, and the AM5x86 was designed to offer Pentium-class performance while operating on a standard 486 motherboard.. They did this by designing the 5x86 to run at 133MHz by clock-quadrupling a 33 MHz chip. This 33 MHz bus allowed it to work on 486 boards. This speed also allowed it to support the 33 MHz PCI bus. The chip also had 16 KB on-die cache. All of this together, and the 5x86 performed better than a Pentium-75. The chip became the de facto upgrade for 486 users who did not want to ditch their 486-based PCs yet.

The Pentium Pro (1995-1999)

(Delos: This is where Intel realised how they had been beaten)

... It has two separate 8K L1 cache (one for data and one for instructions), and up to 1 MB of onboard L2 cache in the same package. the onboard L2 cache increased performance in and of itself because the chip did not have to make use of an L2 cache on the motherboard itself. ...
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Posted at 04:39 on September 15th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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hehehehehe! The chip you're talking about was acually slower than its Intel aequivalents. That is also said indirectly in your oh-so-great 'text book' if you read carefully: they compare the AMD chip with 133 MHz to an Intel chip with 75 MHz and say AMD is faster. Notice something? They're comparing it just for people who wanted to keep using their 486 mainboards!

In the paragraph about the Pentium Pro (which wasn't the 'main model' at that time anyway), you missed the important part, too. This chip had a lot more cache than any other CPU because the L2 cache was included directly on the chip - in contrast to being on the mainboard (as it is still today). 1 MB more cache on Pentium Pros than on AMDs. So with this quote, you proved exactly the opposite of what you wanted to say.


In the time you are referring to, AMD actually lost market share, seen worldwide. As mentioned before, they managed to get quite a nice chunk in the days on the 386 and 486. Their 486DX4 was also remarkable. But Intel's move to call their next CPU 'Pentium' instead of 586 worked, because it confused the customers! AMD was not allowed to use the same name, thus their names like 'K5'.
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Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
Posted at 05:10 on September 15th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete | Delete Attachment
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I've attached the data sheet of an AMD-K5. Just in case you're interested in working with source material instead of only subjective 'text books'.

Every AMD CPU from the 5x86 (the K5 is the next model) has been developed by AMD themselves. Their 486 were based on licensed Intel architecture, but all the 'generations' after were/are not. So much for your initial statement about "they use the same processor basically".
Attachment: *****
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Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
Posted at 02:07 on September 19th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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Actually, I didn't, I miss a big chunk out about the first Pentium computers.

Quote:
The Pentium Pro (1995-1999)

(Delos: This is where Intel realised how they had been beaten)

... It has two separate 8K L1 cache (one for data and one for instructions)...
As I said, there was the Pentium class computer, which was bested by the AMD AM5x86, and Intel put out the Pentium Pro, and yes, they did lose market share, I too bought one because it allowed me to put 4 CPU's on the same board, it really made my day!
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Posted at 05:14 on September 19th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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No matter how often you repeat it, no matter how hard you're trying to ignore my points, no matter how you hard to try to 'misunderstand' what I said, it doesn't change facts.

By the way: the argument 'they lost market share, you can see that on myself as a consumer' is really hilarious :P
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Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
Posted at 18:50 on September 19th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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Dr Gumby
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No matter how many times I repeat it you will never listen :P

And yes, it is kind of funny, but the Pentium Pro was a wonder board! :D
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Posted at 06:28 on September 20th, 2002 | Quote | Edit | Delete
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I'm listening - but at some point, I will just start to shrug it off if you aren't willing to accept objective facts and if you aren't willing to admit you jumped into this discussion without the proper knowledge :P
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Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
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