Thats funny


Is it really that expensive!



I think Toni is quite a catch!



Already has, sometime during the 1980's Margaret Thatcher years when we became the 51st state. We got assimilated 20 years ago.

Are you kidding here? 'Cause if not, you really have no idea what other consequences a war has except the obvious deaths of soldiers/civilians caught in the crossfire...
Wars always generate huge masses of refugees (which is quite normal. If somebody was going to bomb my house, I sure as Hell would get the heck out of dodge too) and where do you think these refugees will go? I don't know how the situation in the UK is concerning refugees but I do know that right across the channel (i.e. Belgium), we've had a great deal of refugees from each recent war which was fought (e.g. Afghanistan) and don't get me wrong, if their houses are being bombed, they're more then welcome to come and stay here a while 'till things cool down... But them (being the refugees) being here in itself costs a lot of money and where do you think this money comes from?

And this is just one example of how this war (or any war for that matter) affects your own life directly or indirectly.
So even if we can't stop the war (of which I too am quite certain. Bush is goign to attack despite how the U.N. feels) we still have to try and at the very least let our voice be heard...

And if you are kidding, ignore this entire post

I know you're once again being 'slightly' sarcastic here, but I was wondering, if the US do attack without UN permission, if anyone would have the balls to put the American government on trial? There is something like a 'UN tribunal', right? And Tapuak pointed out that the US and the countries that have offered to help them are in violation of UN laws.

The Belgian government takes a very paranoid stance in this, they don't want to allow any troops on belgian territory (in fact, we have a whole history of trying to stay neutral) because that would make us 'accomplices' to the crime that is attacking Iraq. I can't blame'em, for once I think the whole attitude of our government in this case has been very wise and - I can't believe I'm saying this - for once they actually represented the opinion of the majority of the population.

Pada: Actually, I think it doesn't matter at all if someone is affected personally by a war. The general question whether it can be ignored that people are killed at all is way more important to me...

Mole: That is correct. The USA can be sued at the International Court of Justice in Den Haag if they break the 'UN laws'. The USA are prepared for this though: one of the first laws passed by Bush's government grants the american president the power to use any means necessary (including armed forces) to 'free' american citizens from exactly this kind of prosecution. So basically, we can expect a US-invasion of western Europe soon...

Edited by Mr Creosote at 22:57 on March, 16th 2003

The members of the US and the British government are guilty of war crimes, so according to UN laws they'd have to be punished. Blair would be the first defendant in the International Criminal Court (ICC) that started its work some days ago. As the US did not join the ICC (now we know they had very good reasons not to do), a UN tribunal had to be established to sentence Bush etc., such as the UN tribunal for Milosevic. The German government is guilty of helping to prepare the offensive war, which is a crime according to Germany's constitution. And the sad thing is: NO ONE of the aforementioned people will ever be sentenced...

As for the Belgian government, it really seems to be one of the few that represents the public opinion, especially in contrast to Spain and Italy.

"We concluded that tomorrow is a moment of truth for the world," Bush told a press conference after the hastily called summit in Portugal's Azores islands.


Thats what he said today, so looks like we get war tomorrow.
This may sound stupid, but by going to war without UN backing how is that a war crime? If it is then why wasn't the NATO intervention in kosovo a war crime also that was done without the UN?

Who says it wasn't?

@ Pada1

I was sort of joking, but with a truthful undertone, It is going to happen, I just hope its over and done with quickly. The fact that the aspect that bothers me most is the amount of coverage on TV was meant to show how indiferant I have become to the whole affair. What can anyone do to stop it? I wouldnt like to live in a dictatorship while Bush is in power, but then I dont live in a country run by a dictator, so I'm indiferant to the fool.

I could vote against Tony Blair in the next election but that wouldnt make any differance because the opposition to the current UK government is in favour of war anyway. So i'm indiferant.

Anyway, the Egyptians attacked us in 1956 without UN backing, the Argentinians attacked us in 1982 without UN backing, I think we should be able to attack a few countries when we feel like it from time to time

REFUGEES
Last year the UK took more refugees than we have foot soldiers in our army - over 110,000. We have a major problem because we speak English, and everybody can speak English so they always seem to come here. Yes this war will generate refugees, will it be a noticable differance to me?? probably not.

TERRORISM
As for terrorism, Ive lived in fear of terrorism since the second I was born thanks to the (US funded until 9/11) IRA. Whether its a shoebox bomb in a bin outside Mothercare or a 10 tonne lorry packed with Semtex that destroys a city centre and takes 5 years to rebuild, terrorism is nothing new to an English or Irishman. If this war generates terrorism then so be it. I aint going to change my way of life because of it.

OIL PRICE
The oil price will rise, for a while at least. But it will never rise to a point that makes other technologies (such as hydrogen fuel cells) more affordable because if it did, the Saudi's would be shooting themselves in the foot. It will rise a bit, and it will fall again. Will I notice the differance? Probably not considering we have some of the most expensive fuel in the world allready here in Britian.

STOCK MARKET
The stock market may suffer, what a shame, that affects me how? Rich bastards dividend payments will drop even further......good. Pensions are allready in crisis. Will it affect me?? Probably not, By the time I'm 65 this war will be a distant memory akin to Bosnia or something that History teachers only spend 1 lesson (if that) teaching kids about in school.

Would you be indifferent, too, if you lived in a country which is threatened by this attitude of the US government? If your country was, wouldn't you want other countries and people from all over the world to support you (note: not necessarily your government, that's another question - but you as a 'normal citizen' )? Would you consider it fair if people shrug what could mean your death off just because they're not directly involved themselves?

No doubt the US will also get tons of refugees. Durning the Bosnian/Serb war we got a lot of Bosnians. In fact, I remember about 3/4ths of my German class were Bosnian refugees. The only thing that worried me about this, is that they were all filthy rich. Where did the middle class and poor refugees go? The ones who 16 year olds didn't drive Mercedes or BMWs?

Mr C, my hat goes off to you for having a better command of English Grammar than me! Spelling never was my strong point, .



Well, your right, I would probably not be indifferant. But I cant imagine a situation where the British people would allow a government to stay in power if they were turning the UK into a regime similar to that of Iraq. I'm not advocating the obliteration of Iraq but lets not kid ourselves, Saddam is a nutter.

Sure, Saddam might rule with an iron fist, and murder all his political opponents (e.g. people he doesn't trust), but is he the only leader that does that in the world? No.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what we say, cause were going to war anyway, as I just read. They're pulling out the inspectors. There is going to be a march here, and everyone is expecting a riot. At least I have a gasmask if the teargas goes off like it did a few years ago...

Very true, but that is not a valid reason for letting him (or any of the others)continue. The problem is, getting rid of him carries the baggage of war, if only there was another way. Weapons inspectors cant change the Iraq government. I think this war has nothing to do with weapons and nothing to do with oil either, its regime change, nothing more, nothing less.

Who do you think is next?? North Korea must be shitting themselves. I wonder how many countries George Bush will 'liberate' during his term? Do you think he'll get another term? From the reports Ive seen over here he seems to be the best thing since Kennedy in the popularity stakes.



Bush's speech is being broadcast over here at 1:00am, i think i'll stay up and watch it to see what he has to say.



I doubt we will get civil unrest but we've allready had 1 senior politician resign (Leader of the House of Commons no less) and a few more expected tomorrow.



Jeez, before sorting out Iraq's oppresive regime it sounds like you need to sort your own out! Gassing your own citizens?!?!? You must live under a nutter like Saddam Wherabouts do you live? LA?

Well, the Village Idiot just announced that Saddam Hussein will have 48 hours to leave the country; thereafter, the murder might begin. I would be interested what happened if Hussein asked Bush to quit his stolen presidency and leave the US within 48 hours.

I think he did
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/sprj.irq.iraq.reax/index.html

[urled]

Edited by Tuss at 05:17 on March, 17th 2003

That's where we differ: I don't consider any political regime right or wrong per se, they're just different. Thus saying one regime has to be changed and the other not is an empty reason to me. The roles could as well be reversed with some 'dictator' playing world police and so-called 'democracies' being threatened. Then, even if you consider this the 'right' political system, you'd be attacked - just like it happens now...

:o I think Bush will resign.

I can kind of agree with this. I certainly dont think it is our place to try forcing democracy on communist states. If you ask a Chinese person if they would like democracy they would probably say 'no thanks were happy as we are', as would the Russains. But dictators are a differant thing. One of the fundamental reasons why the UN was set up was to deal with the uprising of Dictator states during the aftermath of such an incident. Some may take the view that in this respect, the UN has failed over the Iraq issue.

When succesful it cant be denied that installing democracy where there was once a dictator is a good thing. Germany's 'Economic Miracle' is a fine example of this. However it is definately wrong to say that it is allways the best option, and it certainly isnt America's, or Britain, or anyone elses right to go 'installing' their way of life wherever they choose. But I do believe that there is no place for dictatorships this side of the Dark Ages.

I cant imagine a democratic government ever working in Afghanistan, or Iraq for that matter. Their civilisations are too old to switch to a completely differant way of life overnight.

Why do you support or even only accept the un-democratic systems in your or my country then? You see, there is nothing like 'ultimate truth', there are no universal definitions.

Generalizing that (to get away from the fruitless 'democracy' debate), one country forcing its political system on another can only work if both countries have the same cultural roots from the start. That is how it could work with Germany (since the USA is basically a western European country after whiping out the original culture there) - along with billions of dollars of course. None of this is the case with Afghanistan or Iraq which both have completely different society models and will also both not get any significant financing.